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CAV: The Galaxy
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ravezero
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Posted: 17 April 2002 at 2:48pm | IP Logged Quote ravezero

I think you're not giving the level of technology enough credit...the pilot and computer would work together, kinda like modern jetfighters. The pilot provides the intended course and the computer makes it possible. The locked down footpads would be used to provide direction, motion instruction, etc. Otherwise, how would a CAV be instrctued to lean, for example, or sway.

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Posted: 17 April 2002 at 3:58pm | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

I think you're not giving the level of technology enough credit...the pilot and computer would work together, kinda like modern jetfighters. The pilot provides the intended course and the computer makes it possible. The locked down footpads would be used to provide direction, motion instruction, etc. Otherwise, how would a CAV be instrctued to lean, for example, or sway.



Actually, I thought I provided plenty of leeway. How carefully did you read my two earlier posts?

While your modern jetfighter example is quite succinct, I think that it is still too confining...mainly because there is no equivalent on the ground. When talking about jets, precision still has a fairly loose definition.

Too, it would be marginally faster to just have the CAV do what you would physically do than have the AI interpret your movements and execute them. And it just may be that margin that keeps you alive. Like I was discussing earlier, for gross operations that don't require much dexterity, the CAV would be driven using a combination of AI, control yoke and throttle (much like your fighter analogy). But when the fine control is needed, the pilot trips the override and the CAV's legs suddenly become his legs. The nerve impulses from his body would be redirected to the induction patches and used to control the CAV directly. Feedback from sensors would give the pilot a sense of the CAV's balance and action. This way, most actions would be instinctive, such as squatting, kneeling, skipping, ducking, leaning, leaping, and so on. No matter how good AI will get, I feel that there are just somethings that will always require organic minds.




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ravezero
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Posted: 17 April 2002 at 4:09pm | IP Logged Quote ravezero

Why wouldn't it be like that all the time? Why have a switch to flip?

Also, I don't quite think you're getting what I'm saying, either. I'm suggesting this is always on. It's a computer, not an AI, that interprets careful and deliberate foot and throttle motions and pressures and interprets them as programmed.

Also, I think you're close to giving CAV too much ability in terms of mobility. As Matt indicated, it takes a skilled pilot to skip/shuffle the legs of a CAV. I get the impression CAVs lean more towards "walking tanks" than a more anime-based freedom of movement. That is, I don't think your example of induction pads and feedback is necessarily appropriate as CAVs cannot produce the range of mobility such technology would be needed for.

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Posted: 17 April 2002 at 4:54pm | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

Why wouldn't it be like that all the time? Why have a switch to flip?


My thinking would be along the lines of what Frank said earlier. Could you imagine the mental (and to some degree physical) effort it would take to walk your CAV to the battlefield and then have to run into battle. Even small movements would cause your legs to cramp after even a short while. And the 'switch' is a figurative thing...it could just as easily be a voice command or whatever.

quote:

Also, I don't quite think you're getting what I'm saying, either. I'm suggesting this is always on. It's a computer, not an AI, that interprets careful and deliberate foot and throttle motions and pressures and interprets them as programmed.


I think I do follow you. Its just that I think what you suggest wouldn't reflect the advances over the next 200 years. Look at us now, in just over 100 years Man has gone from horse and buggy to putting men in space. What will 200 years from now hold?

quote:

Also, I think you're close to giving CAV too much ability in terms of mobility. As Matt indicated, it takes a skilled pilot to skip/shuffle the legs of a CAV. I get the impression CAVs lean more towards "walking tanks" than a more anime-based freedom of movement. That is, I don't think your example of induction pads and feedback is necessarily appropriate as CAVs cannot produce the range of mobility such technology would be needed for.


LOL!! Quite possibly true. I was basing my ideas off the availibility of nanite technology. Microscopic machines would be a huge advance in technology. So that is where I took off from. I'm not talking about being able to do crescent or roundhouse kicks. But things like climbing, squatting, kneeling, and such should be possible with the current mobility.

Too, I must admit that I suffer from trying to make some sense of Mecha in general. Why would you make a huge walking robot that would cost billions, when your current forces are cheaper and just as effective? The only real reason I can think of is that they would be much more flexible in weapon payloads and/or more mobile.

Silly me! Trying to make sense of fiction. LOL!!




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Posted: 17 April 2002 at 5:01pm | IP Logged Quote Cannonshop

I can think of a host of reasons not to utilize invasive 'ware, not the least of which comes from most Humans' reaction to the idea of surgical anything, at the very least, there remains the possibility of infections interfereing with the gear. Battles in CAV are often fought in Alien environments, most of which are filled with things that at least some of the Combatants have no immunity to. The more breaks in the skin, the more pathways for microscopic pathogens, the more hardware run directly into the body, the more likely said WSO is to be on Immune-Suppressant drugs to prevent Rejection of said components. Having a Section or Task-force sidelined because the Gunners have "Mystery Ailment of the Week" is counterproductive.
Much better, from a Logistical standpoint to use stuff that's non-invasive, easily repaired without being an M.D., (Or, ExoBiologist, in the case of units that are multispecies in makeup), and easily replaced. Not to mention the ability to change hardware about when new gear comes in-Combat crews need to maintain a high state of readiness, something not really feasable when half your team is recovering from invasive neurosurgical procedures designed so his or her unique brain-paths could be translated into operating a multibillion dollar upgrade the factory shipped two weeks ago.
In short, there are practical, Miliary, reasons why "Jacking In" may be something that did not catch on.

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Posted: 17 April 2002 at 6:00pm | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Whoa, lots of data.

Tulku, I agree with you that a standard pilot's interface terminal probably wouldn't suffice for the commander/pilot. However, I still believe that with a few tweaks a third crewmember wouldn't be needed.

As for the pilot's interface, when I posted previously I was assuming that the 'stirrups' were the motice controls for the CAV, as in the pilot pumps his or her legs up and down like when walking.

Now I've never flown a fighter, or even a snake. However, they don't have too much of a problem with rudder pedals and the like, so the fly-by-wire system I mentioned previously, but with pedals of some form which allow the pilot to exert some form of more precise controls would work quite well I would think.

Imagine if you will, a pilot in battle. He is moving his CAV from cover to cover and still trying to get into good positions for his wizzo to lay some pain on the enemy.

While he's doing this, he's useing his stick to determine direction, his throttle to determine speed and his pedals to apply precise and minute control to the CAV, say when weaving and when pushing off on one foot when rapidly changing direction at speed.

The AI/computer would be used to combine the relatively (relative? Hell, really) simple control inputs into precise control signals for each of the thousands of Bellar Joints that make up the motive systems. This AI would combine the stick, throttle and pedal inputs to allow a CAV pilot to duck, weave, side-step and quite a few of the motions a humanoid person is capable of performing. I don't envisage roundhouse kicks either, or punches or even proper anthropomorphic movement as would be seen by a man in a pair of sweats. But when you're talking about a CAV, I just don't think they'd want too.

As for the 'jackless jacking in', I think it could work, but I think it has the same problems as proper jacking in. I think a set of electrodes in the helmet, or very sophisticated AI's, can allow the CAV to balance itself, lean and yes, even sway.

This would work, least I am pretty sure it would. And Cannonshop, very good points.

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Posted: 17 April 2002 at 6:14pm | IP Logged Quote Tulku

Now we're getting somewhere!!!


This all makes sense. It was my postulation that little of the surgery would be done in the brain itself. More along the lines that it would be done mainly to attach the 'induction patches' farther down the spinal column, since you don't really want to bypass the whole body, just modify certain sections. Nanite surgery wouldn't be quite as invasive since it would technically all be done from the inside. If the nanites could stimulate the body to form natural substances around the new pathways, like mylenin, the fatty substance that surrounds our nerves, then it would work quite fine. Besides, maybe 200 years will bring man to a less phobic opinion about medical proceedures, especially if nanites can be used to 'retune' the human body to extend life or stave off old age. Who knows?

Another excellent point you brought up is the differences in Race and the need of a ExoBiologist/ExoMedic. I had only thought about this in a round-about way. Looking at the artwork in the book, all of the Races encountered thus far are all anthropomorphic. While their particular biology may not completely parallel Humans, there are enough similarities that the 'induction system' could work for all Races. They all have torsos, arms, and legs...in the same numbers and uses. I have to assume at this point that their physiology is also somewhat similar to ours, needing some system of skeleton, as well as some means of impulse transmission. This would lend itself to my earlier postulation.

Counterpoint to the argument would be multi-legged CAVs like Scorpions, Spiders, and Bulldogs. This would be such an alien concept that I have a hard time reconciling it to my way of thinking. For CAVs of this type, I have to fall back on Rave's idea of computer-assisted movement. The pilot in essence controls only one set of the legs, the others are controlled by the computer to mimic and assist the two driven legs.

On the idea of ease of repair. Using the 'induction system,' really all you need to repair is the pilot's suit...and the pilot, of course, if he has been damaged. But pilots are always more difficult to replace due to training than equipment. If you meant replacing the equipment, most if not all upgrades for what I am thinking of would be software upgrades not hardware.

Keep it coming! This is fun!!




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Posted: 17 April 2002 at 8:45pm | IP Logged Quote Akela

Tulku:
<< What do you think about the commander/pilot being nearly as festooned with equipment as the WSO? Cables, visor, and such >>

Not really, maybe a data feed cable into the helmet for the visor display assist.

<< On a side note, I wonder if Reaper will have Mobile Command Vehicles or CAVs? >>

In the fiction there will have been (in the past) such CAVs but really they're uncommon now. Maybe one in something like a regiment sized force, nothing smaller. Certainly nothing immediately recognizeable as a command CAV or vehicle. If that were the case it would be the first target for an airstrike or a shot from an orbiting warship.

Frank:
<<As for hip and ankle control, well if you have an AI good enough to take control of the weapons and fire rounds down the aspect bearing to the attacker and then return to how the torso/arms were before, then why can't you simply have an AI that can simulate these things...although a feed from the pilot's helmet with balance instructions would be a good idea too.>>

I must have missed something did I somehow imply that this was not the case? If so, excuse my poor writing. More on this in a bit

Tulku:
<< On the pilot thing, I think Matt said that the pilots have special boots that magnetically clamp into place and allow the CAV to mimic the movement of the pilot's legs and feet. >>

Again, this is not quite what I meant. Take a walk outside sometime and focus on everything that your hip, knee, ankle, foot, toes do simply to negotiate the terrain. You eyes, your inner ear, all of it. There's NO way a pilot could replicate this with some boots - yes the computer would absolutely be needed... more on this in a bit.

Frank:
<< however I will say that there ain't no way I'd adopt a command interface that would require my pilots to act like they were walking while seated inside their vehicles!!! >>

Huh? Wow if I implied this then yeah I screwed up someplace.

Ravezero:
<< Modern fly-by-wire control systems don't actually move, but adjust based on pressure applied and direction. The way Matt described it, I imagine the pilot would only actually apply pressure or resistance to the pedals when balance coordination was called for. >>

Bingo

Ok here's an example of what I was thinking when the pilot interface was discussed.

Normal movement: computer in conjunction with the CAV's sensors calculates normal movement across terrain by a combination of topography scanning and basic animation of the 'leg system' .. pilot interface = "forward" on the control sticks (like a throttle) and that's it.

Rough or dangerous terrain: How does a computer calculate the dangers of spongy soil, a bog, quicksand, or strange "alien terrain" - the software and processor abilities do a heck of a lot - but in the end it's the pilot's inner ear, training, and human "brain" that says "Oh crap, I need to take the weight off my forward leg and pull back quick or this CAV is going face-first"... pilot interface = he pulls "back and up" on the forward leg and drops the post leg down by shoving down on that leg's stick (bends the knee). Now moves his ankle on the post leg to accomodate the awkward balance situation and hopes the gyro system takes up the slack (stand on one ankle for a bit and feel the feedback in your own ankle). The ankle alone may not be enough to maintain balance, the hips have to come into play so he pulls back or forward on one or the other upper leg/hip to off-set the weight.

Now the fun part, he's overridden the computer's computations of normal forward movement so he gets to put the forward leg back down. Well the gyro helps level the foot some but as the new foot comes down if the terrain is unlevel then it's the pilot who must level the foot and do the "rough maneuvering" and let the computer handle the fine details. So he backs off on the forward leg's control stick and lets it return to "level" (remember pulling up lifts the leg, pushing down bends the knee) and solves any problems in unlevel terrain by using his own ankles.

So, if his training is good, and reflexes, and he didn't wait too long that the computer assist couldn't help at all.. the CAV is now on solid ground again. The computer takes back over, the pilot turns a few degrees to the side to avoid the terran hazzard and pushes "forward" again.

You yourself as a human have toe up, toe down, ankle rotation, knee flex, hip rotation (ball and socket) and have an inner ear and hundreds of muscles and nerves to provide the feedback needed to think "Oh crap, i stepped in mud I should pull my foot out." The CAV has the pilot and all the minor things (the muscle feedback, fine interpretation of commands, etc.) is done with the computer... but it still takes the pilot to know that the stupid machine should pull its foot out of the mud and how to do it.

In another example. Stand up.
Orient your body forward and turn from the waist only to face 45 degrees to your left or right. That's how a computer would register "point guns that way" or "point guns the other way" and so forth. But if you've seen any martial arts movie... you're balanced (because you're standing) but are you balanced to take a hit? Now take one half step forward and rotate using your ankles, knees, hips, etc. and face... are you balanced better?
You had balance in both positions but which one was the superior stance for taking a hit? ... that's the difference a pilot makes.

It all goes crazy when the Pilot is jinking and dodging missiles, gauss rounds, rocks, sticks, stones.. birds... all that stuff. Example, if the shot is coming high, the pilot depresses both sticks which tells the computer to bend the knees and now he does the fine tuning in the hips to rock the CAV forward to maintain some balance and uses toe-in, toe-out to keep the CAV from falling back or falling forward. Crouch. Feel what your body has to do when you simply tell yourself to "bend at the knees."

It takes a pilot's entire body to maneuver when the CAV is in trouble. Just "walking" and "turning" are simple things and any computer can handle that. Keeping a CAV from being destroyed... that's the computer between your ears working.

Hopefully I've more clearly detailed what's between my ears. If not, I'm sure I will if yall keep askin' questions.

Ok, back to the JoR See ya tomorrow.

EDIT - Oh yeah and that's why command CAVs aren't really needed anymore. The Pilot *is* the commander. Unless he's trying to dodge getting killed he's got "free time." The CAV's computer can handle stuff. The Pilot is still the "sexy one" - he's the guy or girl in charge... the one with all the glitter... when the Pilot steps out f the cockpit he or she still looks human, take off the helmet and flashes a Tom Cruise smile and all that Top Gun stuff... ... the WSO is that psycho bastard with the trigger and the mentality to say "you... die now" that steps out of the CAV and looks like some kind of Lovecraft nightmare dangling out the back of his helmet and gloves... and when you think of their job... it adds to the aura.

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Edited by - akela on 17 Apr 2002 20:58:56
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Posted: 17 April 2002 at 11:10pm | IP Logged Quote Chrome

Nice picture you paint of Wizzos there Matt....

So just how do you explain Nick falling for Jess?

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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 12:03am | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

Tulku, no one said the technology wasn't there in the future, but perhaps it's just not as efficient/reliable as what is in place now? Perhaps it's just not developed to the point that it would work well in a military environment.


*sigh* I know...but it just seemed like such a cool idea. It would have been much more interesting writing, at least for me.

quote:

Or, and remember that companies trying to win gov't contracts make these units, perhaps the improved performance of said setup isn't enough to justify the additional cost and overhead added because of it.


Sadly this is true. Although, only the UCORs can develop and build these things, they would still cut corners as much as possible. This is probably the only thing discussed so far that mollifies me, mainly because it makes the most sense.

quote:

Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should.


Again true. But its a fictional world! Anything is possible, its all up to the writer and his ablility to explain or justify.


Also, I know I don't work for Reaper. And that my contributions, barring the miraclous, will never grace the books. Reaper has people that already have a vision of what the universe is like, and it is their responsiblity to bring that world to life for us, the consumer. But, it also doesn't keep me from being disappointed that such great hi-tech has low-tech included. Reality is often harsh in fictional works. LOL!! I guess I just expected more. With something as incredibly advanced as a CAV, I expected the pilot interface to be just as advanced. I should have been more down to earth...hehe. No matter how hi-tech a rifle ever becomes (built-in rangfinders, thermal imaging scope, caseless ammunition, synthetic diamond barrels, motion compensators and whatever finally comes along), the bare bones is that you point it in the right direction and pull the trigger. Doh, now that I think about it without the creative blinders on, it makes more sense now. A CAV is an amazing piece of hi-tech equipment even if the pilot is a glorified back hoe operator. Same thing with the hi-tech rifle, you still give it to a grunt to have him point and shoot.

CAV=rifle
pilot=grunt

Lowest common denominator?
The loose nut behind the control yoke.


PS- Guess thats why I write...to fill the voids I see.

PPS- Don't worry, I will be back with more ideas/question about the new info. Just need to bring my thoughts in line with the latest news.





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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 12:21am | IP Logged Quote Akela

Ok so I embellished the WSO a bit. Maybe not Lovecraftian.

Probably a single data feed into the helmet and a single feed into the "trigger" hand. The pilot has the data feed into the helmet but has the magnetized boots... I suppose a cheaper CAV might just have straps or some kind of locking mechanic... either would be cool. The key is the tactile "coolness factor" of a pilot sitting in the cockpit and feeling fully "part" of his or her warmachine. Like slapping down the visor of a knight's helmet... so straps, magnets, or mechanical clasp... all of the above work for fastening the feet. But in either case the pilot's boots are different from the WSOs, just as the WSO has a different gauntlet/sleeve system on the "trigger" hand.

Both crewmembers will need oxygen in hostile environments (it's more efficient to build an oxygen system for a single crewman than to provide oxygen to an entire cockpit area)... so that'll need a feed (but it wouldn't always be needed of course so it could be stowed).

Then add restraint seat straps (or at least the recepticles for straps built into the seats).

I suppose you could take a picture of Dana Murphy, her suit looks pretty normal for a Pilot. She probably pilots a CAV with a harness system built in and just adds oxygen and g-suit on top when the situation/planet demands it.

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Edited by - akela on 18 Apr 2002 00:24:39
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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 12:31am | IP Logged Quote Tulku

Well, POOHHH!!!

That just thoroughly destroys my vision of combat in the future.

A CAV pilot is little more than a highly skilled back-hoe operator. Yes...the technology is better and all...but the skill set is almost exactly the same. Move this lever to go this way, move that one to go the other, this one to raise the bucket, this one to scoop, blah, blah, blah.

Matt, please don't take this as criticism. It's not. I was just expecting more technical advancement in 200 years. I mean they have anti-grav, inertial dampners, and nanite technology....but in the most complex vehicle ever made to date, the control interface is little more than a computer assisted back-hoe.

*Sigh*

Goodnight folks!

Gotta go water my brain...seems all my cranial drool has dried up.




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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 7:41am | IP Logged Quote Froschmeister

On the other hand, I can see an awful lot of potential for CAV pilots who have trouble standing or walking for a little bit after they've exited the cockpit after an extended patrol. Like trying to walk, and accidentally squeezing the control sticks that aren't there, and forgetting how his legs work. I bet they pad the tarmac where CAV pilots disembark.

Reporter: So, Miss Murphy, on completion of that patrol of the Rachian defenses, how do you feel?
Dana: Bugger off you, I don't do inte- *trip* "Awk!" *thud*

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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 8:47am | IP Logged Quote ravezero

Tulku, no one said the technology wasn't there in the future, but perhaps it's just not as efficient/reliable as what is in place now? Perhaps it's just not developed to the point that it would work well in a military environment. Or, and remember that companies trying to win gov't contracts make these units, perhaps the improved performance of said setup isn't enough to justify the additional cost and overhead added because of it.

Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should.

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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 9:50am | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Matt, thanks for the reply. I'm sorry about my mis understanding with the pedals thing. I guess my brain filled in cracks and mutated the idea :o)

I think I understand how I pilot my Ogre now, and how Mad controls those lovely Naftan 88's.

Basically, the way I'm seeing this now, is that I'm sat in my bucket seat, strapped in with a 5 point harness and having an O2 and visor data feed snaking into my helmet while my hands are around two control sticks and my feet are affixed to pedals.

Those pedals, I see as having the ability to transfer ankle rotation and tilt (ankle up and down) as well as full leg movements (such as pull up and push down). The sticks allow me to control direction and the like. And they're both adorned with lots of switches and toggles and wheels to allow me to access pre-programmed terrain and sensor views, zoom my 'hull camera' in and out and any other stuff a pilot needs....like the commgear and stuff.

The one thing I'm missing here...where's the throttle?

As for the wizzo, well that's serious data immersion and tactile controls hardwired into his gauntlets which allow him to access any number of controls and also to fire the weapons.

I also get what you're saying about the AI and the 'look' of CAV crews as they leave their machines. I can also see Frogman's 'weakened' legs scenario happening with some regularity :o)

I can see men and women from all over the galaxy doing this. And Tulku, I think you just got swept up in the 'dreamworld' of technology. This is doable and definately is plausible for a society 200 years in the future.

I like this....

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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 2:16pm | IP Logged Quote Chrome

Tulku, don't feel too bad. If my memory serves me, someone once mentioned that early CAV crews did jack in to control their machines.

But then units started using hackers who could crack a CAVs security systems and fry the Pilot and Wizzo's nervous systems from across the planet. This resulted in armies winning fights without firing a shot and salvaging perfectly new CAVs in the process.

The end result was that CAV crews went back to the "old" ways and a better chance of survival.



-Chrome

"[Ritterlich Warriors] bring a sense of dignity to the death that they deal out so efficiently that they almost make it look easy."
- Eleanor Syde, 2270
Syde's Guide to the Galaxy


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blitz
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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 3:04pm | IP Logged Quote blitz

As far as the pilot goes, I guess I have to disagree with 'glorified backhoe operator'. Use present-day aircraft and pilots as an analogy.

Autopilot systems are present in even the smallest, simplest aircraft. These let the pilot dial in a couple of frequencies, push a couple of buttons, and that's it - no more hands on the controls. Sophisticated systems in airliners even allow completely automated takeoffs and landings, which are pretty complex operations. So, like a CAV, today's airplanes could be operated by a poorly trained chimp if all you need to do is go forward, turn left, etc.

But look at a fighter pilot in a dogfight. The autopilot is OFF. His control inputs are interpreted and augmented by a computer, but he is using his training and instincts to direct his plane. Also, a pilot has to know their machine's systems inside and out - their lives depend on it.

The amount of training and skill necessary to pilot a CAV successfully in combat has to be at least that of the WSO, if not more.

I love what I've seen here so far about the type of person needed to fill each seat, though. What a relationship that must be!

-blitz

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quester
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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 3:36pm | IP Logged Quote quester

as far as mind emmersion goes for getting out of a CAV after a long time.
have you ever seen a fighter-pilot try to walk after a 8 hour training flight.. HeHe
or some navy types trying to walk up the dock after a long time out
and tank crews have the same problem.

"the ground just don t move right" they say..

hell I ve seen friends playing a FPS computer games for some time have the same problem, trying to walk to the restroom and almost killing themselfs..

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Frank Vickers
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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 5:30pm | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Blitz, firstly I gotta say....I love the artwork, shame on the unit assignment :o)

Matt has said previously that the relationship between the Wizzo and Pilot is more trusting than any known, save perhaps marriage and it is in a way. The Pilot depends on the wizzo to protect him (to kill the enemy before he kills them) and the wizzo depends upon the pilot to keep him moving and help him find targets.

We've also been told that wizzos and pilots are paired up very early on in training and only ever seperate because of death (or demobbing, concievably). This is a lot like tank crews now, and like snake crews especially since there's two of them and they do similar jobs.

And I agree, this certainly helps develop the impression and image of the CAV battlefield.

=====
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ravezero
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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 6:32pm | IP Logged Quote ravezero

...how do you explain Dana burning through three Wizzos already then, Frank, if they stay together that long?

- ravezero

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Akela
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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 10:23pm | IP Logged Quote Akela

Tulku:
<< glorfied back hoe >>

I don't know if I want to laugh or apologize. Here's a point though... there ain't no back hoe ever built that can dodge a missile.

Frank:
<< The one thing I'm missing here...where's the throttle? >>

Slight, double forward on both sticks (really slight). Increase amount for more speed. Currently I feel that the "switch" that tells the CAV computer that the pilot is taking over control is when both sticks are not equally forward at default Y axis state.

Also when I imagine the control sticks I see them as being ergonomic not a vertical "joystick" sort of thing. If I just put both my hands out they're almost at a 45 degree angle, not verticle nor horzontal.

Tulku:
<< Same thing with the hi-tech rifle, you still give it to a grunt to have him point and shoot. >>

Yup.

Also I wouldn't call the "person" the lowest common denominator. That's the supreme machine that everything else is trying to emulate or amplify.

Chrome:
<< But then units started using hackers who could crack a CAVs security systems and fry the Pilot and Wizzo's nervous systems from across the planet. >>

That's a key point. We want the universe to feel like it's really a fight on all fronts and that all the main civilizations are on equal ground. If one faction can dream it, another faction can copy it. If one engineer can make it, another can tear it apart. "Technological advantage" is always temporary.

Ravezero
<< how do you explain Dana burning through three Wizzos already then, Frank, if they stay together that long >>

Dana really isn't that great a pilot. She's sexy, she's pretty... but she's only an average pilot. Her primary role in the Red Spades? Recruitment posters and positive press. LOL

EDIT -
Frank:
<< The Pilot depends on the wizzo to protect him (to kill the enemy before he kills them) >>

And the Pilot also saves the WSO when he or she dodges the brunt of the enemy attack. They both save each other's lives.


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Riamh nár dhruid ó spairn lann!

Edited by - akela on 18 Apr 2002 22:31:17
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Tulku
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Posted: 18 April 2002 at 10:58pm | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

I don't know if I want to laugh or apologize. Here's a point though... there ain't no back hoe ever built that can dodge a missile.



Matt, please understand, that wasn't an insult directed at you. It was mostly just an expression of disgust at how violently my bubble was burst. LOL!!

quote:

Also when I imagine the control sticks I see them as being ergonomic not a vertical "joystick" sort of thing. If I just put both my hands out they're almost at a 45 degree angle, not verticle nor horzontal.



This makes sense. I had actually visualized something along these lines from the previous posts. If you check back a few, you should see that Frank and I talked about a pair of control yokes placed at the ends of each armrest.

quote:

Also I wouldn't call the "person" the lowest common denominator. That's the supreme machine that everything else is trying to emulate or amplify.



Ah! The old riddle of steel in a sci-fi context, huh? LOL!

Thanks Matt! Please ignore my blatant frustration earlier. I am getting back on track shortly. Info is still appreciated!




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Tulku
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 12:11am | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

I know that when I first started using them and things got exciting, there was only 2 positions on the throttle, all the way forward and all the way backwards!



You mean there are setting in between????

I just thought they made the two positions that far apart so you wouldn't confuse them in the thick of things.

And Frank:
Although Matt has said what his concept is...and probably what was written in the books now, I can see how the HOTAS system could still work in this context. The control yoke provides direction and the throttle obviously provides speed while the foot pedals control each leg.

So using Matt's example from earlier of a CAV that steps in boggy soil or whatever, the pilot would realize the situation and yank back on the throttle (to stop the CAV). He would then lift his left leg and as the stirrup comes up, it tells the CAV to lift its left leg. Rocking his right foot back and forth, he tries to keep the CAV balanced with the help of the gyro. He then pulls back on the control yoke and applies a little throttle to get the CAV to shift backwards. He then puts his left leg back down, rotating his foot in the stirrup to try to get the CAV's foot flat on the ground again. When things are back to normal, the pilot applies a little left/right on the control yoke to turn the CAV. Then he rocks the throttle to the front, applies some throttle and off the CAV races.
This still isn't terribly intuitive, but it would work just as well as the double control yoke system...and it would build on knowledge that is currently in use, and probably will remain in use during the foreseeable future, for military applications.




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Edited by - Tulku on 19 Apr 2002 12:14:05
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ravezero
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 12:53am | IP Logged Quote ravezero

Going by the control I had in the arcade game mentioned above, I don't see having the same range of movement control with just a throttle and yoke.

With two control sticks I can move forward, back, turn left and right, sidestep/strafe left and right, or any combination of the above.

It got to the point where I could move diagonally while turning and accelerating and decelerating. Ya just can't do that with the HOTAS.

- ravezero

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Frank Vickers
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 4:03am | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Matt, thanks for getting me out of that. I'd hate to insult a member of Ed's merc unit....but yeah, my responce was going to be "well, she's obviously not very good at keeping her wizzo alive then...not marriage material methinks :o)" :o)

And now I understand, you push one forward to turn and you push both sticks forward to move forward. Not the most instinctive control interface (HOTAS is easier to learn), but I can live with it :o)

Also Matt, when I said that the wizzo depends upon the pilot to keep them moving, I also meant to imply the dodging, weaving, side-stepping, leaning and all the other things that we pilots do to keep our CAV moving...and make the ride as smooth as possible (not very smooth usually, not in combat :o)) for our wizzos to keep us shooting :o)

My wizzo does the shooting, I do the moving....it's a symbiotic relationship, and we leave lots of dead CAV's behind us. You gotta love Ogres :o)

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