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CAV: The Galaxy
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ravezero
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 9:16am | IP Logged Quote ravezero

There was an arcade game I used to play where you sat in a booth across from your opponent and had it out in anti-grav tanks in an arena setting.

The control setup was nearly identical to what Matt describes, and it worked well. Of course, I was also the best player at that mall-haunt arcade on that game (this is a joke, btw). Mmmm...that was fun. Wish I could remember the name...

- ravezero

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Frank Vickers
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 10:05am | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Yes I remember the game, although likewise I can't remember the game. Tank Wars or something.....

However, I also remember the difficulty I had the first few times I played it, both that one and the new Star Wars Pod Racer arcade cabinet. Both use a similar system and given enough time, it's easy enough to learn, but it's not as immediate as say Afterburner and it's ilk.

But we are talking about military trained men and women, and they will have at least 6 weeks of training in using it before they're expected to fight. So yeah, while you won't be able to just jump in and drive away, I doubt the dual stick system would be a problem in combat....not once you're used to it.

However, I would personally still prefer a throttle and stick, probably. Either way, it's HOTAS/HOS so it'll work either way :o)

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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 10:40am | IP Logged Quote Chrome

I'd be willing to bet that you pretty much sucked the first few times that you used a HOTAS too.

I know that when I first started using them and things got exciting, there was only 2 positions on the throttle, all the way forward and all the way backwards!

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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 11:44am | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Well, I will admit I wasn't much good the first couple of times I played Afterburner, but that wasn't because I was hitting the wrong controls. The plane went where I wanted it to do, pretty much, but where I wanted it to go always seemed to be into the path of a missile!!

Does anyone remember the contorl column for the old Speeder Bike game made from Return of the Jedi? In that, you had a steering wheel a lot like the one from KITT (two prongs) and you could pull the wheel out and push it back in, and of course you could turn it. However you could also push the prongs themselves forward and backwards. It took a LONG time to get used too, but by god it was a simple system once you got used to it.

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Tulku
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 1:50pm | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

Going by the control I had in the arcade game mentioned above, I don't see having the same range of movement control with just a throttle and yoke.

With two control sticks I can move forward, back, turn left and right, sidestep/strafe left and right, or any combination of the above.


True, you would lose some of the specialized motion. Of course, in those games you do both the piloting AND the firing. In a CAV, you only do one or the other. And mostly things like strafe left/right are done because the game doesn't allow you to torso twist. In real life, you would point your feet in the direction you want to run and twist your upper body to bring your weapons on target. It is rare in the extreme that you would actually sidestep while firing since you cannot possibly get the same kind of acceration out of your body while trying to cross your legs that way.

quote:

It got to the point where I could move diagonally while turning and accelerating and decelerating. Ya just can't do that with the HOTAS.




Nor would you need to in CAV. That kind of control would require my 'induction patch' idea again. Think about it! You couldn't get a 101 ton CAV to hitchstep from side to side without an incredible amount of control. Doing it with two control yokes would tax even an ace pilot to the max, IMO, if it was possible at all.




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ravezero
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 1:56pm | IP Logged Quote ravezero

...but not two control sticks AND the foot controls! huzzah!

Matt mentions skipping aside to dodge missiles (paraphrasing), and you *could* do that with two sticks and throttle.

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Tulku
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 2:07pm | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

...but not two control sticks AND the foot controls! huzzah!

Matt mentions skipping aside to dodge missiles (paraphrasing), and you *could* do that with two sticks and throttle.



LOL!! This is getting fun again! Thanks, Rave!

Actually you could still do this with the HOTAS and foot pedals. You would simply lift both legs and the CAV would crouch. Push down on both and the CAV would stand. Push the left down and you would lean to the right (since the signal would be telling the CAV to extend its left leg). Push down the right and it would lean left. Simple.




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ravezero
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 2:42pm | IP Logged Quote ravezero

that's just the legs, man. what about adjusting angle and controlling inertia? two sticks, i tell you!

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Tulku
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 7:15pm | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

that's just the legs, man. what about adjusting angle and controlling inertia? two sticks, i tell you!




Dood! Thats what the computer and gyro are for! LOL! HOTAS will work and be simpler as a natural progression of current systems. The foot pedals could be used to sway the torso. Besides, so far we have mainly established that the pilot only controls the legs anyway. The WSO controls the guns and launchers and therefore the torso as well.

My problem with all of what Matt said earlier...about squatting, kneeling, and such...is that you would have to do all of it without using your arms. Consider how difficult it would be to do all those things without using your arms as counterbalance.




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Frank Vickers
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Posted: 19 April 2002 at 8:08pm | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Tulku, you attach a laser sight to your arm and see if you can move your arm in such a way as to move seperate parts and yet still keep the sight on target. It's possible, the arms aren't consciously controlled, they're used by the computer/AI to counter the inertia while the wizzo makes conscious use of them to put rounds on target. Also, Matt has also mentioned AG and inertial dampeners. I can assure you, those would work (since they're Matt's ideas).

Either way, this is the Universe according to Reaper, and if Matt says we must use twin yokes and pedals then that's what we use. It's canon now....

And remember, a pilot commands his vehicle, which means that most of them are gonna be officers or very senior NCO's. I can assure you, an officer recieves extensive and rigourous training in everything he or she must do, and NCO's have the experience to match that.

Typical officer training takes, in most forces I know of, approximately two years for anything aside from a basic infantry officr and even then it ain't much shorter. In that time, you'll have a semester of basic training which is hard, tough and grueling but those that do get through are tougher and better than they were before. Then you have trade training, and for CAV pilots this would be intensive simulator time and practice practice practice.

By the end of this, a pilot has the skills to do whatever he is supposed to do. For a CAV pilot this would mean the green as grass Elltee will know how to operate a CAV. Granted, most of it won't be instinctive yet, and he won't have the experience to temper his urges and to guide his hand, but then again all junior officers are alike. Even Matelots with dolphins on their chests.....

So while yor regular pilots are fresh and green, or just really out of practice or inept (those who have 'Daddy' to buy their rank...), he will, given time and a little luck, get better.

The same goes for wizzos, but to my mind they're NCO's...Corporals, Sergeants and Warrants...they get less academic schooling and more hands on practical experience...the end result is the same.

A few dozen posts ago, someone mentioned the way a sailor walks when coming ashore after a while. That odd walk is the best way to walk aboard ship, and I know is as a 'Seaman's Swagger'. I still have mine, it's altered how I walk permenantly (more solid) and when I go on a feery or boat, it comes right back.

So perhaps when I dismount after a long battle and/or route march, my legs move a little mechanically and my hands move a little in time with my legs and not as normal (counter-balancing my body). I can do my job, and that's all that counts :o)

I've been thinking about the AI/computer in a CAV, and I was thinking, my piloting style wille different from say Rave's. It's due to the individual and also what we pilot, I'd pilot a Starhawk differently than I would an Ogre. So why not have the ability for the AI/computer to learn how I do things?

This then means that when I'm in my Ogre, I'm at whatever rating I Should be...however should I mount a Starhawk I'd be slightly uneasy and would say drop a skill level. I think that makes sense, since the AI would have to learn me (if it were permenant then the AI would move with me) and it'd also give aged CAV's a little 'personality' because the AI's would either be freshly wiped or would have been moulded by past pilots.

Just a thought.

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highheat_101
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Posted: 20 April 2002 at 12:07am | IP Logged Quote highheat_101

I would like to say PROPS to you who served or are still serving
our military you ROCK
now i bleave that if you manage
to stay alive in this game you should game some famairity with
your unit something personal(fem) bns or somthing maybe
im old but as we know sometimes a unit take damage and get fixed
but a problem is still in the system and cant be found out why
or the tech has found a way to highen its reflex time or tweek
the programing to suit a piolt/wso

just my idea

this game is the S---



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Posted: 20 April 2002 at 12:08am | IP Logged Quote blitz

Does anyone know if the JoR will include pictures of a CAV cockpit? I've been building them in my head reading this discussion - wondering if I should wait for the JoR before putting pen to paper.

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Posted: 20 April 2002 at 1:59am | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

Tulku, you attach a laser sight to your arm and see if you can move your arm in such a way as to move seperate parts and yet still keep the sight on target.


I may not be military, but I have done similar things. And unless the military teaches you differently...if you want to run and keep your fire on target you either have to run straight at your target (usually a stupid idea) or you run at an oblique to it and pivot at the waist to keep your weapon trained. I'm not saying you will hit much, but it is the only way to run and fire at the same time(and not just spray-and-pray).

quote:

It's possible, the arms aren't consciously controlled, they're used by the computer/AI to counter the inertia while the wizzo makes conscious use of them to put rounds on target. Also, Matt has also mentioned AG and inertial dampeners. I can assure you, those would work (since they're Matt's ideas).


Actually, I believe when Matt talked about the AG and Inertial dampeners, he meant that those systems were to keep the DefFire buffet inside the cockpit to non-lethal levels. And although its possible that the computer/AI uses the arms as counterbalance, it would be minimal at best. Use your laser pointer on the arm example from above. Try to walk, crouch, or lean from side to side without taking the laser too far off target...Its carking hard to do! Yes! A gyro would help but just how much is the question. And DefFire would almost always be an exercise in terror for the pilot. Imagine you are racing your CAV across the field and you are jinking around something when someone shoots you. As you are making the turn, the AI takes over and swings the torso in the correct direction to bring the weapon systems on target. If you were using the arms as a counterbalance for the turn, you would suddenly have to fight the CAV for balance as a significant portion of its mass wildly shifts.

quote:

Either way, this is the Universe according to Reaper, and if Matt says we must use twin yokes and pedals then that's what we use. It's canon now....


Again, as I have said in previous posts, I know that Reaper has people with a vision of how the universe works and it is their job to bring it to life for us. Matt says twin yokes and pedals? Thats gospel! I will work within those bounds now. It doesn't mean its the most efficient, or logical (or something I really like...LOL!!)...but its the way it WILL be portrayed. And there is nothing saying that Matt may not take our ideas and use them as an upgrade somewhere in the future. Besides, the creation process is fun!

quote:

And remember, a pilot commands his vehicle, which means that most of them are gonna be officers or very senior NCO's. I can assure you, an officer recieves extensive and rigourous training in everything he or she must do, and NCO's have the experience to match that.



Most likely. From what I can tell from the rulebook, all CAV pilots, no matter the Race, are the equivalent of a 2nd Lt. Its the same system we use for our pilots here in the US. Only commissioned officers can command.

quote:

I've been thinking about the AI/computer in a CAV, and I was thinking, my piloting style wille different from say Rave's. It's due to the individual and also what we pilot, I'd pilot a Starhawk differently than I would an Ogre. So why not have the ability for the AI/computer to learn how I do things?


I was thinking along the same lines. I was thinking that probably your suit or helmet would have a chip that stored your biometric readings on it and piloting history. When you got in a CAV and plug in, the AI would read the chip and learn about you. It would then adjust its reaction clock to maximize its effectiveness with you as pilot. It would probably do the same thing for the WSO. When he plugged in, it would set things up for him as well. Then the AI would cross reference the two settings to come up with the best mix. The better the pilot/WSO, the less the AI/comp has to compensate for and can spend more computational power on other tasks. Sound about right?

quote:

This then means that when I'm in my Ogre, I'm at whatever rating I Should be...however should I mount a Starhawk I'd be slightly uneasy and would say drop a skill level. I think that makes sense, since the AI would have to learn me (if it were permenant then the AI would move with me) and it'd also give aged CAV's a little 'personality' because the AI's would either be freshly wiped or would have been moulded by past pilots.


If you used my idea from above, the info from your last foray in a Starhawk would be stored in the biometric chip. The AI could then set itself to your last performance curve and begin learning you from there. That way, unless you were piloting a type of CAV that you have never piloted before, the AI would have some loose performance evaluations to start with and not have to learn you from 'fresh.' This would also create AIs with idiosyncracies since they wouldn't be wiped but develop over time, which would give each CAV some personality (and could be the way some CAVs get their names).


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Posted: 20 April 2002 at 6:59pm | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

I think John's done some work...look in the Project Waldo threads. However, I'd still like to see your slant on it.

And Blitz, I never said it would be easy (the laser sight thing) but it is possible, and for something the size of a CAV or tank, I dare say some drift is okay.

As for the momentum of the arms and that, yes it'd be a pain but there's AG/inertial dampeners...I would be very surprised if they weren't used to negate the effect of the torso spinning while the CAV were moving. In fact, I'd say they had too...and they would need to be independant of the pilot's commands otherwise the pilot would need to keep track of the weapons systems and torso facing, even if only a cursory knowledge, but it'd be needed to take that into account when moving. I don't think this is the case, so the effects must be negated.

And while I don't fully apply, thanks Highheat :o)

Oh and Blitz, officers command, but NCO's can pilot, but only Army helicopters as far as I know, in the US military. I'm not sure about how we do it...

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Posted: 20 April 2002 at 7:02pm | IP Logged Quote Chrome

Email John Bear, Blitz. I have a sneaking suspicion that the 1/60 scale cockpit that he took to GAMA is part of his Dictator project. You can see it at his site, the link's in any of his .sigs or in his profile in the members section.

-Chrome

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Posted: 20 April 2002 at 8:33pm | IP Logged Quote blitz

Thanks, guys. I've seen John's cockpit mini - really nice, just starving for more :)

I remember some really great cockpit drawings from BTech source books and I was hoping for the same in the JoR. I'll wait and see what we get in the JoR and go from there in my own drawings. Still trying to wrap my brain around the whole DF concept. Piloting a CAV has gotta be a wild ride, even with antigrav fields.

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Posted: 20 April 2002 at 8:55pm | IP Logged Quote Akela

Tulku:
<< HOTAS will work and be simpler as a natural progression of current systems. >>

Only assuming a CAV is a progression of an aircraft. For the most part tanks do not use HOTAS, heck a Leopard drives like a car.

Blitz:
<< Piloting a CAV has gotta be a wild ride, even with antigrav fields. >>

I hope so!

Side note, also remember that Defensive Fire is not always a torso-twist. That's why CAVs have shoulders, elbows, etc. That reduces a LOT of the Y-Axis rotation.

Fun stuff!

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Posted: 20 April 2002 at 11:52pm | IP Logged Quote Tulku

quote:

Tulku:
<< HOTAS will work and be simpler as a natural progression of current systems. >>

Only assuming a CAV is a progression of an aircraft. For the most part tanks do not use HOTAS, heck a Leopard drives like a car.



OOoohhhh! So, basically, you have put tanks on stilts? LOL!!




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Posted: 21 April 2002 at 1:40am | IP Logged Quote Chrome

Better than airplanes on legs!

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Posted: 21 April 2002 at 3:40pm | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Yeah, Matt. How comes we don't have yokes then?? Tanks nowadays don't use two sticks, they have a wheel-like yoke :o)

I'm glad I reactivated this topic, we've gotten a lot of info which should help make fanfic all the more interesting. I've gotta go look over my story now....

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Posted: 22 April 2002 at 4:22pm | IP Logged Quote Akela

Absolutely! Tank on stilts with big guns. I mean look at them!



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Posted: 22 April 2002 at 4:23pm | IP Logged Quote Akela

Speaking of which!

Can somebody find me a picture of the inside of a Swedish Bofors Stridsvagn 103? I've been dying to find out how the driver is also the gunner in one of those things.

Slan,
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Posted: 22 April 2002 at 4:47pm | IP Logged Quote quester

thats easy he has all the movement controls and the gun is semi-auto and fixed in the hull.

the turns and tips the whole tank to aim the gun..

the road wheels can be jacked up and down to rock the tank front the rear this elavates the gun

and he has a gun site worked into his front port..

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Posted: 22 April 2002 at 8:12pm | IP Logged Quote Akela

Yes I know how it works! I want a picture!

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Posted: 22 April 2002 at 9:10pm | IP Logged Quote ravezero

Best I could do on short notice:





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