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CAV: The Galaxy
 Mil-Net Commstation : CAV: The Galaxy
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Tulku
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Posted: 23 April 2002 at 12:01am | IP Logged Quote Tulku

Shame on you Matt!! You know you aren't supposed to have a life outside working on the JOR or answering our questions here!! Bad Matt! No cookie for you.


Just kidding! Thanks for all the interaction AND all the answers(even if the did spoil my fun). Glad to have someone on the inside keeping us up to date.

Thanks again!



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Akela
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Posted: 23 April 2002 at 12:06am | IP Logged Quote Akela

Very nice! Wish those swedes had taken a better picture of the 103s cadillacs... erm... do the Swedes even call their gunner controls a cadillacs? lol

Very nice!

Slan,
~Matt Ragan
Riamh nár dhruid ó spairn lann!
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Akela
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Posted: 23 April 2002 at 12:45am | IP Logged Quote Akela

Well shoot, I probably could have spent my evening more productively but I found some very nice sites:

S-Tank
http://www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors/stank/stank.html

AFV (Armored Fighting Vehicle) Interiors:
http://www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors/archive.html

Black Hawk Helicopter cockpit:
http://home.att.net/~mgkcid/mh60lins.jpg

AH-64 Apache pilot seat:
http://www-acala1.ria.army.mil/lc/cs/csa/ah64pilt.jpg

AH-64 Apache Gunner seat:
http://www-acala1.ria.army.mil/lc/cs/csa/ah64copi.jpg

Apache (IHADSS) Helmet:
http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jawa/jawa001013_1_p3.jpg

http://www.kilo1.fsnet.co.uk/apache%20images/ah64_pilot.JPG

While none of them really come close to the level of "tech" we're talking, I certainly enjoy the photos because they give the correct sense of "grit" ... even painted white they just "look" like they're fighting vehicles, not sports cars.


Slan,
~Matt Ragan
Riamh nár dhruid ó spairn lann!

Edited by - akela on 23 Apr 2002 00:52:57
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KaiMaster
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Posted: 26 April 2002 at 12:33am | IP Logged Quote KaiMaster

That's funny. None of those links pointed at a pre-release version of the JoR. ;)

Just kidding of course... and BTW I'm working on a CAV FAQ for Mil-Net right now so I definitely understand the need to just get away from it all, even if it is for a little bit heh

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ravezero
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Posted: 03 May 2002 at 12:31am | IP Logged Quote ravezero

you linked to an image on your PC, hombre ;)

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vyeto
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Posted: 03 May 2002 at 11:49am | IP Logged Quote vyeto

I think I can lay any and all questions of Pilot-to-unit interface to rest right now. I will not accept that CAV's are controlled by anything other than this:

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vyeto
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Posted: 03 May 2002 at 3:43pm | IP Logged Quote vyeto

I feel like a dumbass...let's try this again:

Errr (fumbles around trying to insert picture)...

Uhh...


[url]http://www.geocities.com/vyeto/superior_interface.jpeg[/url]

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Frank Vickers
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Posted: 03 May 2002 at 7:07pm | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Hehehe. Vyeto, care to wager on third time being the charm? :o)

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Chrome
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Posted: 03 May 2002 at 8:43pm | IP Logged Quote Chrome



God Yahoo sucks. They wouldn't let me look at the picture, but I could download it just fine. So I just put it on our server.

-Chrome

"[Ritterlich Warriors] bring a sense of dignity to the death that they deal out so efficiently that they almost make it look easy."
- Eleanor Syde, 2270
Syde's Guide to the Galaxy


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vyeto
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Posted: 06 May 2002 at 7:24am | IP Logged Quote vyeto

Thanks Chrome,
That joke would have been a lot funnier if I'd gotten it right the first time

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Wolf
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Posted: 07 May 2002 at 10:25am | IP Logged Quote Wolf

Hey Frank and Rave, the game you guys were referring to is called Cybersled and I love that game. I've been the bane of my friends more than once when we've gone head to head on it.

Akela, nice links for the pictures of those cockpits.

"Incoming rounds have right of way!!"
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Red5angel
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Posted: 11 November 2002 at 3:21pm | IP Logged Quote Red5angel

Hey guys, you can now leave off the pedals and go straight to a joystick for motion control etc... The gyro in this puppy will let your CAV stay on its feet nearly all the time!

http://www.segway.com/

As for rough terrain etc, I saw a show once where they had a robot they were bulding to pass over rough terrain, power was the only issue, otherwise some simple sensors kept track of the terrain in front of the machine so all you had to do was push the joystick forward and the robot went forward, compensating for terrain.

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Chrome
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Posted: 11 November 2002 at 4:08pm | IP Logged Quote Chrome

I saw those things in action on The Tonight Show a few months ago. No way will the gyros in it stand up to any type of contact.

-Chrome

"[Ritterlich Warriors] bring a sense of dignity to the death that they deal out so efficiently that they almost make it look easy."
- Eleanor Syde, 2270
Syde's Guide to the Galaxy


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Red5angel
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Posted: 11 November 2002 at 4:18pm | IP Logged Quote Red5angel

Not true, think of it this way, first of all these are prototype gyros, just now coming into reality. with this in mind:

They have a wheel chair that uses this same technology and a man can throw 20lb bags without tipping over, catch 55lb bags of dog food while sitting with it (By the way the thing extends up to 6' tall on two wheels while the guy is doing this.
The Segway itself can be pushed and it just adjust automatically by moving backwards. That was the amazing thing to this technology, the first thing people would ask themselves when they saw it in action was, "Wont it tip over!" nope, check it out if you dont believe me.
Now take all tha information, advance the tech a few hundred years, and give the military some time to play with it.

Gentleman, this little piece of tech is one giant step towards actual mech type platforms in the military if they so choose to go in that direction. Applied to the world of CAV and you have a big answer to alot of questions.

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Chrome
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Posted: 11 November 2002 at 4:40pm | IP Logged Quote Chrome

OK, so how does the gyro account for sidesteping, crouching, stepping up/down and jumping?

-Chrome

"[Ritterlich Warriors] bring a sense of dignity to the death that they deal out so efficiently that they almost make it look easy."
- Eleanor Syde, 2270
Syde's Guide to the Galaxy


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Red5angel
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Posted: 11 November 2002 at 5:59pm | IP Logged Quote Red5angel

I imagine the same way it would account for any other action it takes. Havent seen the spechs on the Segway for instance but you figure it has a gyro based on the principles of something deep inside spinning (this is oversimplifying but you understand) The whole idea is that it makes whatever it is tucked into, in this case a CAV, more stable in its upright position.
Thats not to say you dont reach some critical tip point, or a hard enough impact wont knock it over, but in this thread it was suggested that your feet work pedals to make a cav move, when with a gyro, which a CAV would need anyway, yours are in your ears ;), then you wouldnt need pedals, they might even just get in the way. A pilots legs would grow tired, minimizing the time a pilot could be in action, even if the pedals were feather touch sensitive. With a litle tophat like touch point at the top you could even make a CAV lean or crouch fairly easily.
Pedals serve a purpose in aircraft but not so much on ground vehicles, even braking could be much more controlled through the use of a joystick. Basically you reduce joystick, throttle, and pedals to joystick, like in a video game.

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Frank Vickers
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 12:37am | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Red5, if you've read the thread then you'll have seen both Chrome and I were on your side of this originally. However, this is the official way a CAV works. If you want to differ then feel free, just don't feel right :o)

As for responce time, I get a better responce time when I play MW3/4 if I use both my hands. Yes, I could have all the controls mapped onto my joystick (including the hat) but I don't like doing that - I have two hands and as my other hand is doing nothing I prefer to put it to work.

While you're tilting your joystick forwards, and moving your hat (which would have to be much bigger to allow for the range of movement you'll need for such fine control), I'm using both my hands and my feet and how I'm sitting in the chair to achieve much finer control.

Here's the official way AI's work: they do it.

In CAV, when you push the joystick forwards, the CAV's AI thinks you want to go forwards and so it co-ordinates all the different limbs and joints (and AG and ID fields) into allowing me to move forward. However, when I'm in battle, First Blood's AI isn't good enough to do the things I might need it to do now and then, and telling it I want it do to them would get me and my wizzo killed.

So I just take control, and add in my own movements into First Blood's natural movements and I duck under that Badger which just flew right across my line of advance. But once the Badger is passed, I let off the pedals and allow the AI to do things as normal.

The pedals and stuff are there for the odd occaision when you MUST have fine control and you don't have time for the AI to do it. The AI can interpret my throttle setting and my joystick direction into crude directions. But my AI can't interpret fine controls without extra ways of telling it - and voice is too slow and jacking in is not possible.

And there's no jets in CAV. Bellar Joints provide enough power to jump the CAV, and since a tank is only about 10 feet high I don't think a 30 foot humanoid robot thing has a problem with that (can you jump 2 feet easily?).

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Chrome
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 12:54am | IP Logged Quote Chrome

quote:
As for 'hopping' over tanks, I dont buy that CAVS are agile enough to hop over objects that large, not without jet assistance and in that case no problem.
This is the same agility that gives the pilot his Defensive Situation modifier when being attacked. If CAVs are agile enough to dodge missiles and weapons fire, hopping over a tank or other small vehicle is a piece of cake.



-Chrome

"[Ritterlich Warriors] bring a sense of dignity to the death that they deal out so efficiently that they almost make it look easy."
- Eleanor Syde, 2270
Syde's Guide to the Galaxy


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"Ritterlich Warriors bring a sense of dignity to the death that they deal out so efficiently that they almost make it look easy."
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Red5angel
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 12:54am | IP Logged Quote Red5angel

Frank, I understand what you are saying, really I do, and I also understand how it works in CAV, although the idea that bellar joints can jump 60 some tons over a tank (not just height but width or length as well) seems a bit strange, hey its sci fi!
I think mostly its just a matter of opinion, I like the joystick idea for realistic control, but the foot pedals and such could be 'fun'. Reaction time involves a lot of factors, trust me on this one if you dont believe me at first, you could be faster then I, or you might respond qcuiker to a different control layout then I do. I think you could do it with a modern day game controller if you really wanted to and had the training, especially with an AI handling all the complicated functionality.
I do however disagree with the idea that your bodily motion would be a good way to pilot such a machine. Too many buttons, switches, and delicate equipment to worry about bumping into, helmets come flying off or get skewed during a particularly violent reaction and human beings tend to overreact anyway, if nothing else my martial arts training has taught me this.

Regardless guys, dont get the wrong idea here, CAV does it one way. I approached the conversation with the idea that it was just an open ended discussion on how things could be done. When Dean Kamen created his system for allowing something like the Segway or his Wheelchair to work the way it does, we jumped a thousand light years closer to creating a working mech, even if only for recreation. A warmachine is built with all sorts of redundancies, specialized systems and such to allow the common soldier to use it effectively in the quickest amount of time with the least amount of training and experience. I imagine while CAVs are complicate this idea applies to them as well.

By the way, before people get carried away and start claiming they respond faster with two hands then one lets get something straight. While you might be able to respond faster then me in a video game, using two hand to my one, your neuromuscular response will be quicker with one hand then with two. Its why we learn to use the gas and the break with one foot instead of two. So Frank, whil eyou may be pretty quick with two hands on the old keyboard, if the controls were setup for use in one hand your response time would in fact increase, barring certain neurological problems :)

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Frank Vickers
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 3:27am | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

I think I see your point Red5, but there's still a problem.

As you reduce the number of control interfaces you have, you also reduce the number of combinations you have on those interfaces. With a stick, throttle and pedals you can pretty much get each combination or manouver you want from them.

And we're not suggesting you use the pedals to simulate walking... we're saying you use them for fine control of the feet at times. The joystick and throttle work most of the time but sometimes you need a little more responce.

And who said video games have only a joystick? Have you seen the current generation? Those things have THREE d-buttons or joysticks on them.

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Red5angel
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 10:00am | IP Logged Quote Red5angel

Frank, I could agree with you but only to a point, heres why:

If I have a joystick that controls speed, direction etc.. and a tophat that allows me to crouch, lean, what other controls would I need? A button maybe to fire jump jets, other then that manipulation of the joystick gives you excellent range of motion, and I believe you are capable of more fine motion with your hand then your feet.

Video games provide those things for immersion, to draw you into the game, most of those controls arent necessarily necessary, and your standard game console can generally accomplish everything it needs for one environment with one controller.

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Chrome
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 10:41am | IP Logged Quote Chrome

If my life depended on the amount of control that one piddly little joystick provided me with over a complex and agile vehicle like a CAV, I'd keep my butt safely at home in my lazy-boy and let some other sucker get his shot off.

There's just no way that one joystick could allow you to do all of the things that a CAV can do. Like I said before.... how do you step up with a joystick button? How do you sidestep? How do you hop over that friendly tank that just came out of the woods directly in front of you?

A simple button on a joystick could never equal the amount of fine control that you'd need for manuevers like that. Especially on the battlefield.

Something else that you may have overlooked Red5Angel, based on your comment about the pilot's legs getting tired. The CAV handles all of the walking by itself. The only time that the pilot has to use his legs is when these tricky types of manuevers are required. And it wouldn't really be that tiring. Like any other physical activity that you perform constantly, like bicycling or skiing, your legs will eventually get used to it and you won't even notice the effort.

-Chrome

"[Ritterlich Warriors] bring a sense of dignity to the death that they deal out so efficiently that they almost make it look easy."
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Syde's Guide to the Galaxy


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Red5angel
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 10:57am | IP Logged Quote Red5angel

Chrome, sidestepping and stepping over objects in front of you is easy, you move the joystick and the CAV follows, thats how a joystick work, it translates your simple movement into all the complicated things a CAV has to do to go where you want it.

As for 'hopping' over tanks, I dont buy that CAVS are agile enough to hop over objects that large, not without jet assistance and in that case no problem.

So we differ in that where you are more comfortable in a technological 'mess' in my opinion [}:)] I am more comfortable in a machine that has been refined to simple controls which translates to better response time as well. While you are trying to get 2-4 limbs to work together to perform the actions you want I am flicking my joystick and possibly pushing a button to ignite jets. ;) After all, a good portion of this conversation has been about response time an dthe less you have to deal with and think about the faster you can react and the faster those reactions can be processed.

The legs getting tired thing has been corrected. It sounded ot me like you wanted to translate the pilots leg action into walking for the CAV, in which case your legs would be moving constantly and they will get tired. Frank clarified that he meant only using them for fine control.

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Frank Vickers
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 1:12pm | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

Oh hell yeah Red5.... a pilot may be a trained expert in CAV piloting but that don't mean he's had any more training than your average grunt... especially in time of war :o)

One last thing... you have anti-gravity and inertial dampeners inside the cockpits - you'd have to else the turret spinning like a top would squish your brain into your cranial plate in a second - so you're free to move as if you were sitting in a quiet room without anything. And living and working inside a cramped place (like an engineering space, reactor control room or CAV cockpit) would get you used to that space soon enough :o)

I've still got the scars to prove it :o)

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Frank Vickers
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Posted: 12 November 2002 at 1:38pm | IP Logged Quote Frank Vickers

I don't agree, but I know the chemical reactions involved so I guess I can. And training and familiarity has a lot to do with it.

But regardless of that, being able to press 2 controls at once usually works out faster - regardless of how fast the impulse is travelling down your neurons.

The car example isn't particularly good, not when you have a limey on the forum. The reason you're taught that way is because you need one foot constantly on the clutch, and people just haven't gotten round to training ppl to use nothing but automatics exclusively.

I cannot drive with one foot on each pedal, because I need to use the clutch - or be ready to at a split second's notice. You don't need to worry about that (assuming you have an automatic), but you're just not taught to do that.

However I guess we should agree to differ slightly on this :o)

*Gives himself and Red5 a pat on the back*

125 posts and over 1000 readings. Not bad going :o)

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